The True Jesus (3 views) Subscribe   
  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/10/2001 1:41 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 42)  
 
  117.1  
 
There is a simple way to see if someone has the true Jesus or not. By true Jesus, I mean the one of the Bible, not the one of Mormonism who is the brother of the devil, nor the Jehovah's Witness Jesus who is Michael the Archangel, and certainly not the one of the New Age Movement who is simply a man in tune with the divine consciousness. 
The Jesus of the Bible is prayed to (Acts 7:55-60; and Zech. 13:9 with 1 Cor. 1:1-2). 
The Jesus of the Bible is worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11;14:33;28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6) 
The Jesus of the Bible called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8). 
In cult theologies, Jesus is a creation in one form or another (this is why the Jehovah's Witnesses add the word other' four times to Col. 1:16-17). Therefore, He is not to be prayed to, worshiped, or called God. 
If you are a Christian then you will be able to pray to Jesus, not just through. You will be able to worship Jesus equally with the Father. And you will be able to call Jesus your Lord and God. A cultist cannot do this. A cultist has a false Jesus, and, therefore, a false hope of salvation. 

The following is an expansion of the above points 

If you put your faith in a Jesus that is not true, then your faith is useless. The power of faith does not rest in the act of believing, but in its object; the greatest faith in someone false is the same as no faith at all. Sincerity and false messiahs do not bridge the chasm of sin between God and man, only the Jesus of the Bible does that. Who then, is the true Jesus? 
Jesus said that He was the only One who reveals the Father (Matt. 11:27 and Luke 10:22): "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him" (NIV). 
So, to know the true Father you must first know the true Jesus. The question is, how do you recognize the true Jesus? Simple, look in the Bible. 
If you were to say, "Father receive my spirit," who would you be praying to? The Father, right? 
If you were to say, "Jesus receive my spirit," who would you be praying to? Jesus. 
In Acts 7:59, Stephen, while full of the Holy Spirit (v. 55), prayed to Jesus: 

And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (See also Acts 9:14; Rom. 10:13.) 

Stephen prayed to Jesus, not just through Him. If it is acceptable for him then it should be alright for you. The Jesus of the Bible is prayed to. I pray to Jesus. Do you? If yes, good. If not, why? 
But you might say, "Jesus said to pray to the Father." I do. But I also pray to Jesus as Stephen did. If the church is only to pray to the Father then why did Stephen, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, address Jesus in His prayer? Was he wrong? See also 1 Cor. 1:1-2 with Zech. 13:9 where calling upon the name of the Lord is prayer and prayer is addressed to Jesus by the Corinthian church. 

Jesus was also worshipped. The verses are: 

And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's son! (Matt. 14:33). 
And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him (Matt. 28:9). 
See also Matt. 2:2,11; John 9:35-39; Heb. 1:6. 

The Jesus of the Bible is prayed to and worshiped. Do you do what Jesus' disciples did? Do you pray to and worship the true Jesus? 
Since it is against Mormon and Jehovah's Witness theologies to pray to Jesus but only through if you do worship Jesus, how can you do that without praying to Him? And, do you honor Him equally with the Father as Jesus said to do in John 5:23? If you do not, then why not? 
There is just one more issue to address. Do you call Jesus your Lord and God? 
After Jesus' resurrection He showed Himself to many people. One of them was Thomas. John 20:28: 

Thomas answered and said to Him [Jesus], "My Lord and my God!" The literal Greek says, "The Lord of me and the God of me." 

"My God!" is a pagan expression used today. Two points can be made from this. First, do you agree that Thomas a devout Jew was swearing, like a pagan of today? Second, there is no biblical account of swear words. Peter did swear in Mark 14:71 by swearing he did not know Jesus. To say Thomas was swearing, or merely exclaiming profound surprise has no evidence. 

God calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8: 

But of the Son He [the Father] says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever..." 

Unfortunately, in the Jehovah's Witness Bible in Hebrews 1:8 you'll see that it says, "God is your throne, forever and ever." This, technically speaking, is a legitimate translation. The reason this is so lies in the nature of the Greek language and the fact that the form of the word "God" and "Throne" both end in a noun construction that is interchangeable, therefore making the NWT translation legitimate. It is unfortunate that the Watchtower has chosen to do this. Nevertheless, if you'd like to read more about this, then go to The Jehovah's Witnesses and Heb. 1:8 and Psalm 45:6. 

Conclusion: 

The Jesus of the Bible is prayed to (Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 1:1-2 with Zech. 13:9/Ps. 116:4; John 14:14), worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6), and called Lord and God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8). If I have the wrong Jesus, and therefore I serve the wrong God, then why do I pray to Jesus, worship Him, and call Him my Lord and God as the Scriptures teach? But, if you have the true Jesus, why is it you don't do those things? Why does JW theology not agree with the scriptures? 
I think the answer is simple. The Jesus of the cults is not the true Jesus. Therefore, they are wrong. 




In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ

 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    7/10/2001 10:02 am  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (2 of 42)  
 
  117.2 in reply to 117.1  
 
Not trying to change the subject but... 
You know Russ there is something that I admire, for lack of a better word, about the Mormons and the Jehovahs Witnesses. The "church" is such an important part of their lives. One of the things they miss the most when they leave these cults is the fellowship with the other members. The only church that I've been a part of that has this type of fellowship is the church I'm attending now. The bad thing is I live about 30 minutes away so my fellowshipping with other members is limited to some extent. I find it very sad that people are being pulled back into cults because The Church is lacking in providing basic fellowship. I realize that in a cult this interaction between members may be based in fear. But you know I really enjoy the family feeling that I get when I'm around brothers and sisters in the Lord. We are the Family of God but there are cults beating us out in the area of fellowship. 

Ruth 




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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/10/2001 11:35 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (3 of 42)  
 
  117.3 in reply to 117.2  
 
Hi Ruth, 
I totally agree with you that the Church, is lacking in Fellowship. Although I think the trend is towards more, and more meaningful fellowship and commitment and acceptance in Jesus of one another. I too am going to a Church with excellent Fellowship, we meet several times a week in several different environments for various Bible studies, Worship, Singing, Praying, Support and Fellowship. 

I dont think what the cults practice and call fellowship can be compared to Christianity. Mormonism and Jehovah Witnesses etc. Are Extremely Selfish, and Self Serving at the Core Root. Much of what is being done in the name of fellowship is networking and manipulation. Remember the end Result of these Cults is to be a god, have Vast Power and Influence, have Multiple wives (sex partners). And the human Flesh/Sin Nature is very strong in seeking physical gratification. 

The fellowship that these Cults have established is Flawed! That is why People Cannot Easily Leave the fellowship without, Threats, Intimidation, fear, and many reprisals. 

Christian Fellowship is True and Pure, it is putting God and others first it is denying of self it is Loving and accepting one another, it is Not manipulation. Also Christians are Unique in that we face a Real Spiritual Battle to discourage us from Fellowship, with God and one another. I dont think Satan is disrupting Mormon fellowship (because I think Mormon fellowship is Satanic) like Satan is out to disrupt Christian fellowship. In Short we Christians face a lot more Difficulties than the cults and we Christians Receive a lot more Blessings than the Cults. 

For Christians Fellowship is up to us and the Mature Christians will Always be the ones who reach out to others and Love one another in the Truth of Jesus. What the Church needs is more Mature, Loving, Serving, Giving, Christians 





David A. Brown
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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/10/2001 12:19 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (4 of 42)  
 
  117.4 in reply to 117.2  
 
I agree....Fellowship is very important! 
My wife and I left the church we were attending last year and have found a smaller church where the fellowship is awesome! 
The problem with these cults is they use fear and other tactics to "sucker" them in....Sad really.



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ



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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    7/10/2001 12:36 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (5 of 42)  
 
  117.5 in reply to 117.3  
 
I totally agree David. 
There is a lady that I have known for years who has a daughter and son-in-law that just left a cult. I don't know how wide spread it is but it's called something like Heritage Fellowship(?)something like that anyway. On the surface they look very good, wholesome, family oriented, etc. The more you discover about them though the worse it looks. Basically they believe their leader is Jesus in the flesh. Well her daughter left and let them know why and they began to tell her husband that she had satan in her, that's why she was saying these things about them. She began to pray for her husband that the Lord would show him the truth about this organization. Of course the Lord is faithful and the husband saw what was going on. They moved out of the "community" and back into town. The husband said that it is very hard for him because he became so dependant upon the community relationships. The leaders met all of the time and the men could not make decisions for their family on their own without "counsel". He's going through a lot of loneliness now because he's having to relearn how to do these things on his own. The men and women do everything together with the group. The men fix cars together, have barn raisings, sing, study with the leader, farm, etc. The women homeschool together, sew, make soap and pottery, bake, etc. It's not like they are not allowed to do things individually but they are strongly encouraged to work as a group. There is a fear of looking different then the group or being rejected by the group. 

What I've noticed is that when a church does do a lot of group activities people begin to ask "is this a cult?" We have the real thing though. At my church anyway there is no pressure to be with the group. When you come to something be it a prayer meeting, concert, or a baby shower, we greet each other with hugs and kisses because we have really missed each other. That should be the norm in a church because we are family, instead it's the exception. 

We have a need to be included and cults play to that need. That need should be fulfilled through Jesus and the Body of Christ. 

Ruth


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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/10/2001 1:22 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (6 of 42)  
 
  117.6 in reply to 117.5  
 
Hi Ruth,
Good Point!

John 8:31,32 .. If ye continue in My (Jesus) word, then ye are my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you free.

As my Christian walk is maturing I find my Freedoms in Jesus Christ to be very important, Freedom to attend a fellowship and Freedom not to. Freedom to Pray, Worship, Talk, Sing, Fellowship, Share, Serve, and Freedom not to.

Back when I had two sets of friends, Christians and worldly friends, I really began to notice that my worldly friends would not let me be myself. I had to Live the image of the moment. Anyone who did not look the image or fit the group was totally ridiculed. One day a girl told me that I should be more outgoing, like this other guy. I told her that he wasnt outgoing, he was doing drugs, and for the moment he was outgoing but she didnt know what he was like w/o drugs. She continued to pressure me and thought drugs would be ok!

At the same time I was attending a Church and belonged to the singles group. The singles group was very diverse, in looks and abilities, and this was accepted not rejected, as everyone Loved Jesus. I noticed that people were free to be themselves and this freedom made for a better more accepting, loving group than the worldly group. The two groups became like night and day. I finally I left the worldly group and solely embraced the Church group. Also it wasnt until I made that decision that God Really came into my life.

We have all had bosses, relationships, parents, teachers, friends, enemies, or acquaintances, etc. that have at times been oppressive to us. We can learn from these experiences to Enjoy, and Protect our Freedom in Jesus.






David A. Brown
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/11/2001 1:27 am  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (7 of 42)  
 
  117.7 in reply to 117.1  
 
Blood_Bought (RFI1965) wrote:
There is a simple way to see if someone has the true Jesus or not. By true Jesus, I mean the one of the Bible, not the one of Mormonismnor the Jehovah's Witness Jesuscertainly not the one of the New Age Movement.
  .
  .
  .
I think the answer is simple. The Jesus of the cults is not the true Jesus. Therefore, they are wrong.
  At this point, all you are doing is playing meaningless, dishonest word games.  Let's look at a few simple facts, on which I think we will all agree.  There has been, in the history of this world, only one Jesus of Nazareth, who was born of Mary who was a virgin, having been conceived by the Holy Ghost, and being the only Begotten Son of God.  There is only this one man who suffered and died to pay the price for all of our sins, and who was resurrected a few days later, opening the way for all mankind to be resurrected.

  There has never been one such man for Catholics, and another such man for the Orthodox sects, and another for the Episcopalians, and another for the mainstream Protestants, and another for the Mormons, and another for the Jehovah's Witlesses^H^H^H^H^H^Hnesses, and another for the Seventh Day Adventists, and another for the Messianic Jews, and so on.

  There is only one Jesus.  All these groups may have different understandings about just who this Jesus is, and what he has taught, an what he expects of us, but all these groups consist of people who follow this same Jesus, to the best of their understanding.

  Anyone disagree with me so far?

  All these groups are Christian.  This is what the word Christian means.

  The argument that Mormons, or any other group, follow a different Jesus, and are therefore not Christian, is not any kind of statement of truth  it is a dishonest propaganda trick  a semantic ploy used to fool and deceive the weak-minded. The use of such a ploy should certainly be taken to reflect on the character of those who use it, and on their confidence in the truth of their own professed beliefs.  One who truly, sincerely holds a belief will not see any need nor any purpose in resorting the the use of such blatantly dishonest trickery to promote his belief.  Such deception is the mark of one who either knows that the belief he is promoting is false, or who cares less about the truth of this belief than he cares about using this alleged belief as a vehicle to seek power, money, or to boost his own ego, or to pursue some other selfish purpose.



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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/11/2001 1:54 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (8 of 42)  
 
  117.8 in reply to 117.7  
 
I will post this one more time with hope it penetrates your head and stays in your brain. I DID NOT WRITE THE INFORMATION IN THE POST SO, YOUR FALSE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST ME BEING A TRICKSTER IS YOUR SIN TO REPENT OF AND, IF YOU DO HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH WHAT IS IN THE POSTS THEN ADDRESS YOUR COMPLAINTS TO THE AUTHOR AND NOT TO ME... 
Did you get all that?



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ



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And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/11/2001 7:54 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (9 of 42)  
 
  117.9 in reply to 117.7  
 
Bob, 
For the Hundredth Time, Mormons do not follow the Real Jesus. Mormons follow a Pretend make-believe Jesus, Mormons follow the Imagination of Joseph Smith. Mormons, according to their founder the American Joseph Smith, believe and follow that Jesus and Satan are brothers. Jesus is God! Satan is Not God, Satan is an Angel created by God! The two cannot possibly be brothers. To say that Jesus and Satan are brothers is to say that Jesus is an Angel or that Satan is God, both are wrong. 

If we are to follow your post, Then According to you, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, and Catholics and Protestants, are ALL Christians/Mormons. You Do Not believe that these Groups have the Grace of God. You believe that Only Mormons have the grace of God. 

Why? Do you post such posts! Attempting to call everyone a Christian, when Even You Dont Believe it! 






David A. Brown
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/11/2001 11:35 am  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (10 of 42)  
 
  117.10 in reply to 117.8  
 
I will post this one more time with hope it penetrates your head and stays in your brain. I DID NOT WRITE THE INFORMATION IN THE POST SO, YOUR FALSE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST ME BEING A TRICKSTER IS YOUR SIN TO REPENT OF AND, IF YOU DO HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH WHAT IS IN THE POSTS THEN ADDRESS YOUR COMPLAINTS TO THE AUTHOR AND NOT TO ME... 
Did you get all that? 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 

Hrm.... funny, doesn't the trickster often use other words to further thier own purpose, even knowingly? 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/11/2001 11:39 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (11 of 42)  
 
  117.11 in reply to 117.9  
 
For the Hundredth Time, Mormons do not follow the Real Jesus. Mormons follow a Pretend make-believe Jesus, Mormons follow the Imagination of Joseph Smith. Mormons, according to their founder the American Joseph Smith, believe and follow that Jesus and Satan are brothers. Jesus is God! Satan is Not God, Satan is an Angel created by God! The two cannot possibly be brothers. 
To say that Jesus and Satan are brothers is to say that Jesus is an Angel or that Satan is God, both are wrong. 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 

Actually, if you think about things philosophically, Jesus and Satan are brothers, Satan was an angel made by god according to the bible (This making him a son of god) and Jesus also was the son of god, thus Satan is the 'bad' brother. 

Satan is more made by Christianity than the OT... but that is another discussion, if you study the texts Satan is derived from Shaitan who is basically what has become Saint Peter, Lucifer, Satan and others often associated under the same name are the names of those who fell from God's grace or have been changes in position because of an imporper Jewish education. 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/11/2001 12:19 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (12 of 42)  
 
  117.12 in reply to 117.11  
 
1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the Love of God toward us, because that God sent His Only Begotten Son into the world, that we might Live through Him (Jesus).
John 1:14 And the Word (Bible) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His Glory, the Glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of Grace and Truth. 

Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of the Father, since Jesus is the Only one that defacto excludes Satan. And for that matter everyone else is excluded including Budah, Allah, and everyone else.

*Please see the links: to posts on this forum:

Jesus Son of God & Son of Man

Angels what are they?






David A. Brown
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/11/2001 3:10 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (13 of 42)  
 
  117.13 in reply to 117.12  
 
So God excludes himself? (Allah is God, just a different word in a different language.) 
Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/11/2001 3:19 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (14 of 42)  
 
  117.14 in reply to 117.13  
 
Allah is NOT God in another language...Since when is Jesus and Allah the same person? Considering they both did different things according to the writers of the Quran and bible.... 
You again, have no idea what you're babbling about.... 
Don't you get tired of being wrong all the time?



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ



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Spirit-Filled Christian
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And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/11/2001 3:54 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (15 of 42)  
 
  117.15 in reply to 117.13  
 
I would have expected a more rational answer from you than Allah is God, just a different word in a different language." 
1)Have you ever delved into the Quran? 

2)Have you ever heard any Rabbi teach that Position? 






David A. Brown
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Edited 7/11/01 6:56:32 PM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/11/2001 4:02 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (16 of 42)  
 
  117.16 in reply to 117.15  
 
To answer to both of you, Allah is one of the ten names of God, just like JHVH or YHVH depending upon how you choose to translate those four letters. 
To the two questions you ask, yes I have on both, the latter is more of trying to convey a message. God has more than just one name and one aspect. 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/11/2001 4:31 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (17 of 42)  
 
  117.17 in reply to 117.8  
 
Blood_Bought (RFI1965):
I will post this one more time with hope it penetrates your head and stays in your brain. I DID NOT WRITE THE INFORMATION IN THE POST SO, YOUR FALSE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST ME BEING A TRICKSTER IS YOUR SIN TO REPENT OF AND, IF YOU DO HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH WHAT IS IN THE POSTS THEN ADDRESS YOUR COMPLAINTS TO THE AUTHOR AND NOT TO ME...
  Whether or not you are the original author of that text is rather beside the point.  The point is that the propaganda technique employed therein is dishonest and deceptive, and this dishonest nature of it should have been obvious to you, if you are as intelligent as some of your own postinsg suggest.  You must have known that this was dishonest, yet you posted it, and represented it as truth.  A lie is still a lie, even when the person telling it did not make it up himself, but borrowed it from another.



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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/11/2001 4:33 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (18 of 42)  
 
  117.18 in reply to 117.17  
 
When I posted it, I believed the content to be accurate and only after talking to you have I begun to question any of Matt's writing and research on his site.



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ

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Spirit-Filled Christian
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Vsit My Family Website 
 
 

And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/11/2001 4:42 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (19 of 42)  
 
  117.19 in reply to 117.9  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) lied:
For the Hundredth Time, Mormons do not follow the Real Jesus. Mormons follow a Pretend make-believe Jesus
  Repeating a lie does not make it true, no matter how many times you repeat it, or how loudly.



If we are to follow your post, Then According to you, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, and Catholics and Protestants, are ALL Christians/Mormons. You Do Not believe that these Groups have the Grace of God. You believe that Only Mormons have the grace of God.

Why? Do you post such posts! Attempting to call everyone a Christian, when Even You Dont Believe it!
  I have major disagreements with the beliefs of the Catholics, the Jehova's Witlesses^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hnesses, and some other radical sects, and I have significant disagreements with the teachings of most other Christian sects.  But this does not change the basic fact that all of these sects revere and attempt to follow the same leader, Jesus Christ, that I revere and attempt to follow.  That I believe these other groups to be mistaken on several important points, that I believe them to be missing vital portions of the true Christian gospel, does not mean in any way that I do not consider them to be Christians.



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   From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/11/2001 4:47 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (20 of 42)  
 
  117.20 in reply to 117.18  
 
Blood_Bought (RFI1965) wrote:
When I posted it, I believed the content to be accurate and only after talking to you have I begun to question any of Matt's writing and research on his site.
  The dishonest nature of that text should have been obvious to any thinking person who read it and considered its meaning.  Perhaps in your zeal to expose Mormonism, you've been copying and reposting anti-LDS texts, without actually reading then and considering for yourself whether they contain any truth?



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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/11/2001 4:49 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (21 of 42)  
 
  117.21 in reply to 117.19  
 
BoB... 
For years anybody not a Mormon and especially non Mormons living in Utah, were called "gentiles" by the Mormons. When did this derogatory name get stopped being used against non Mormons and why? 
R/C  
  
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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/11/2001 4:49 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (22 of 42)  
 
  117.22 in reply to 117.20  
 
I did read what I posted and perhaps I might have missed the specific part you are talking about. Post it and I will comment.



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ

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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/11/2001 4:50 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (23 of 42)  
 
  117.23 in reply to 117.21  
 
Since when did "gentiles" become a derogatory word?



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ

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And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/11/2001 5:43 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (24 of 42)  
 
  117.24 in reply to 117.23  
 
When it is used by Mormons in the context of Christians being non believers...non christian Mormon. 
R/C 

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Edited 7/11/01 8:51:32 PM ET by RACHELSCHILD 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/11/2001 5:54 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (25 of 42)  
 
  117.25 in reply to 117.7  
 
Bob, 
Im repeating these questions from another string, that I posted to you, but have not gotten a reply. The topic is about the Triune-Trinity, God. 

1)Bob, is The Holy Spirit, God? 
2)Bob, is Jesus, God? 
3)Bob, is the Father, God? 
4)Bob, is Satan, God? 

*Notice I am asking about the G God, Supreme God of the Universe, not the g god of the Mormon teachings and writings. 





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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/11/2001 6:10 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (26 of 42)  
 
  117.26 in reply to 117.24  
 
Oh....umm, ok. 
***scratches head*** 




In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ



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Spirit-Filled Christian
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Vsit My Family Website 
 
 

And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/11/2001 9:53 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (27 of 42)  
 
  117.27 in reply to 117.21  
 
RACHELSCHILD wrote:
For years anybody not a Mormon and especially non Mormons living in Utah, were called "gentiles" by the Mormons. When did this derogatory name get stopped being used against non Mormons and why?
  I'll answer that question if you'll answer this one:  Have you stopped beating your children yet?

  Seriously, what you speak of is a cultural, not a religious phenonemon.  At some point, it had become something of a fad among Mormons, especially in Utah where we are such a dominant part of the population, to refer to non-Mormons as Gentiles.  Like all fads, this lasted for a while and then faded off to obscurity.  It never had any meaningful religious significance. 



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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/11/2001 10:15 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (28 of 42)  
 
  117.28 in reply to 117.25  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
Im repeating these questions from another string, that I posted to you, but have not gotten a reply.
  In the last few days, two things have been different than usual  I have been busier with Real Life than I usually am, and the rate at which questions have been posted in this forum which specifically call for my attention has been much greater than usual.  There are threads in this forum several days old which I have not yet had time to read.



The topic is about the Triune-Trinity, God.

1)Bob, is The Holy Spirit, God?
2)Bob, is Jesus, God?
3)Bob, is the Father, God?
4)Bob, is Satan, God?
  God the Father is God, Jesus is God, and The Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit) is God.  These are three separate beings, united in purpose, who collectively and individually bear the title of God.  If this seems a bit difficult to understand, and perhaps not entirely logical, I say it is because of limits in our own ability to understand it, and in our language to adequately describe it.  Nevertheless, it is certainly more sensible than the Athanasian Trinity.  In my next posting, I will include a link to the text of the Athanasian Creed.  I know you will censor it, which is why I am going to put it in a separate posting, so that you will not be able to use it as an excuse to censor this message.  But before you censor it, please follow the link and read the Athanasian Creed for yourself.  It is this unholy and blasphemous abomination, and not the Holy Bible, that is the source for the Trinity in which most Catholics and Protestants believe.



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  From:  Rowan (POTIONS)    7/11/2001 10:15 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (29 of 42)  
 
  117.29 in reply to 117.1  
 
"My God!" is a pagan expression used today. 
Where did this information come from? 
To my knowledge, [ and I have many Pagan friends of all religeons] Those that pray do so as one of the following: 
"Oh Great and wonderful GOD/GODESS... Or Dear LORD and LADY...." 
"Lord Buda..." 
"Lord Krishna...." 
"Lord GOD, He who was and ever shall be....." 
"GOD of our fathers....." 
and so on.. Please note that there is more than one Pagan religeon offered here as any religeon not Christian these days is referred to as Pagan..... And none of them use the expression "MY GOD" to start a prayer. To most of them to claim ownership of their preferred Diety would be not only disrespectful but abhorrent. [ We are talking true pagans and not the "wannabes" here as they are just clueless and will say whatever to get a reaction anyway they can.] 

We are not discussing "Satanists" here either as they are an altogether different breed of "religeon" and there are many Pagan religeons who do not believe that Satan exists just as many believe that life after death is another physical life, not one in a Paradise provided by their GOD. 

So again, please explain to me where this info came from? Mine is from personal knowledge of members of many different faiths and frank discussions with them as to what their religeons teach and what rituals they perform. 




Contemplate the little things in life and then enjoy them all!..... Rowan





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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/11/2001 10:17 pm  
To:  Rowan (POTIONS)    (30 of 42)  
 
  117.30 in reply to 117.29  
 
What is it you don't understand?



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ

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Vsit My Family Website 
 
 

And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/11/2001 10:23 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (31 of 42)  
 
  117.31 in reply to 117.28  
 
The Athanasian Creed:  <http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/athacree.htm>



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  From:  Rowan (POTIONS)    7/11/2001 10:29 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (32 of 42)  
 
  117.32 in reply to 117.30  
 
Where the research for this information that "MY GOD" is a Pagan exepression? To my knowledge, the expression "MY GOD" is generally used in place of an epithet/expression of surprise by persons [ including Christians ] who whish not to say something worse. Blasphemous but not exclusive in its usage. 



Contemplate the little things in life and then enjoy them all!..... Rowan





Many thanks to Valcali at Creative Signatures, who took my dream and made it real! 


Creative Signatures


For wonderful herbal products, please go to:


Medicine Song's Moon Lair

For you perfume or aroma items, please visit me at:


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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/11/2001 10:55 pm  
To:  Rowan (POTIONS)   unread  (33 of 42)  
 
  117.33 in reply to 117.32  
 
The information you read in the first post can be found on the website that was listed in the first post. If you should have any questions with its contents, direct your comments to Matt Slick, author of the information therein.



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ

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 The
Spirit-Filled Christian
Forum  
Vsit My Family Website 
 
 

And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/12/2001 7:59 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (34 of 42)  
 
  117.34 in reply to 117.28  
 
Bob, 
You Refused to answer the question. 

Bob, is Satan, God? 

You also contradicted yourself in your own answer, that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are God, But the Trinity is Blasphemy. Is it upsetting to you that God is Limited to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Mormons & Satan are not Gods. 

This time please Answer the question! 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/12/2001 10:08 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (35 of 42)  
 
  117.35 in reply to 117.34  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
You Refused to answer the question.

Bob, is Satan, God?
  HmmmI distinctly remember typing an answer to this one, but it's not there now.  The answer is this:  No, Satan is not God.  He would very much like to be God, and at some point, he thought he had an opportunity to become part of the Godhead, in place of Jesus, but this opportunity was never real, and he is now very bitter and angry that it didn't pan out for him.



You also contradicted yourself in your own answer, that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are God, But the Trinity is Blasphemy.
  No, I did not contradict myself.  It is the Athanasian Creed, the fruit of an effort to reconsile Christian doctrines with the heresies of Greek philosophers, pagans, and other heathen, which I described as blasphemous.  I stated further that the concept of the triune Trinity, as taught by most Christian sects, is based in this blasphemous Creed, and not on the Bible.  I note, with some surprise, that you have not yet censored my link to the Athanasian Creed, which is found in this message.  Please go, follow that link, and read this Creed for yourself.



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/12/2001 7:57 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (36 of 42)  
 
  117.36 in reply to 117.35  
 
Bob, 
How did Satan think he could become God in place of Jesus? 

Do you think God the Father offered Satan the Chance to be God?? 

Do you think God is a Hat that can be put on, taken off and passed around??? 

Do you think Satan Got a raw deal???? 





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Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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Message 37 of 42 was Deleted    



  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/12/2001 10:39 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (38 of 42)  
 
  117.38 in reply to 117.36  
 
[No, this isn't an example of Davidian censorship.  I accidentally posted the same message twice, and this was the second copy. I suppose, since it really doesn't matter whether this extra message gets censored, I might as well provide the link I would have put in the real message. ] 

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Edited 7/13/2001 2:03:11 AM ET by BOB_BLAYLOCK 

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Edited 7/13/2001 2:25:29 AM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/12/2001 11:13 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (39 of 42)  
 
  117.39 in reply to 117.36  
 
  Oops.  I'm going to assume that the deletion of message 37 was not your usual censorship, but an effort to clean up my error of having posted the same thing twice.  Of course, while you were doing this, you were unware that I was, unaware of what you were doing, editing 38, in order to correct my error without making it look like censorship.  Fortunately, I was able to retreive the message from my cache, so here it is again:




David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:

How did Satan think he could become God in place of Jesus?

Do you think God the Father offered Satan the Chance to be God??
  If you have access to a copy of our Pearl of Great Price, take a look at Moses 4:11.  As usual, I'd be glad to post a link to this text online, but you'd only censor it.  God the Father never had any intent for Earth other than to send Jehovah as our savior, according to a plan that had already been established.  Lucifer proposed a different plan, one which would no thave worked, and which would not have allowed any of us to reach the full potential of what God had in mind for us, but which, according to Lucifer, would not result in any souls being lost either.  Lucifer wanted to be The Only Begotten, and to administer this plan, and he wanted for himself, not only the glory that was due to Jehovah, but that which was due to God the Father as well.  Lucifer's plan was, of course, rejected, and angry at this, Lucifer led a rebellion against God the Father and against Jehovah, which was also unsuccessful.  Lucifer, and those who followed him in his rebellion, have been forever denied the privelege of progressing beyond their premortal state.

  I do not think Lucifer ever had any realistic chance of becoming part of the Godhead.  Jehovah had already been chosen and designated for this role, in accordance with the plan which had already been established and accepted.  I do not really know what was so special about Lucifer, that he should think he had a better plan that God's, or that he should think that he and his plan would be accepted in lieu of the plan and the Savior that had already been designated and established.
Do you think God is a Hat that can be put on, taken off and passed around???

  What a ridiculous thing to suggest.  Of course not.
,br>

Do you think Satan Got a raw deal????
  I'm sure that Satan thinks so, as does every mortal criminal who thought he could get away with something, only to be caught and fully brought to justice.



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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/12/2001 11:23 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (40 of 42)  
 
  117.40 in reply to 117.38  
 
*The Same message from Bob was doubly posted* 
probably due to difficulty posting on Delphi, so I deleted one of the duplicate postings. 
Bob, 
Let me get this straight, According to the Mormon Myth, God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and Satan where hanging out Talking about how to save the people on earth. BTW, where was God the Holy Spirit? 

At this Gab session Satan wanted to save the human race his way but God the Father {the Father of Jesus, NOT the Father of Satan, because Jesus is the ONLY Begotten of the Father, and Satan is an angel and NOT God, and NOT the Son of God} decides to use Jesus plan to save mankind. 

Satan cant save mankind his way so he leads a rebellion against God. 

What was Satan going to save Mankind from???? Prior to the Sin which Satan did instigate, Mankind didnt need Saving!! Adam and the Woman were in the visible presence of God and Knowingly had a relationship with God. They were not lost until after the sin. 

According to Mormon teaching, the Father, Jesus, and Satan sat around and argued about saving people who were not lost. Doesnt make any sense. 





David A. Brown
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From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/13/2001 12:37 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (41 of 42)  
 
  117.41 in reply to 117.40  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
Let me get this straight, According to the Mormon Myth, God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and Satan where hanging out Talking about how to save the people on earth. BTW, where was God the Holy Spirit?

At this Gab session Satan wanted to save the human race his way but God the Father {the Father of Jesus, NOT the Father of Satan, because Jesus is the ONLY Begotten of the Father, and Satan is an angel and NOT God, and NOT the Son of God} decides to use Jesus plan to save mankind.

Satan cant save mankind his way so he leads a rebellion against God.

What was Satan going to save Mankind from???? Prior to the Sin which Satan did instigate, Mankind didnt need Saving!! Adam and the Woman were in the visible presence of God and Knowingly had a relationship with God. They were not lost until after the sin.

According to Mormon teaching, the Father, Jesus, and Satan sat around and argued about saving people who were not lost. Doesnt make any sense. 
  It doesn't seem to make sense, because you're missing some other important points of doctrine.  I don't really have the time or ability, right now, to fill in all the holes, but lets see what I can do in that direction.

  Before I proceed any further, are we both in agreement that God the Father is far more clever than we can imagine, and certainly far more clever than Satan?  Are we in agreement that everything that has happened regarding the Earth, and everything that will happen, is in accordance with God's planning and intentions?  Can we agree on these two points, even if we disagree sharply with regard to some further details I will try to explain about God's plan, as I understand it?

  When Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, this was not any kind of defeat for God's plan  it was, in fact, a vital part of it.  I will admit to a great deal of unclarity in my own understanding, with respect to why, if Adam and Eve were meant to take this fruit, that God commanded them not to, and why, with Lucifer being so determined to try to foil God's plans, that it was he who convinced Adam and Eve to take the fruit.  Perhaps God would have commanded Adam and Eve to later take the fruit, when he thought the time was right, or perhaps part of his plan required Mankind to demonstrate the ability to choose to act in defiance of God's commandments.  I think that Satan is, to what would seem a remarkable degree, ignorant of the fullness of God's plan, and in his attempts to sabotage it, is unwittingly playing an important role in helping it.  As I hope we've already agreed, Satan is not nearly so clever as God.

  An important part of God's plan, as understood by Mormons, is what we call free agency.  What this means is that we have the ability to choose to do good or to do evil, to obey God or to disobey him; with this freedom comes the responsibility and the consequences of our choices, and when all is said and done, our place in the afterlife will be determined by the choices we make in this life.  The plan which Lucifer proposed would have denied us this agency.  He proposed to save all of us, by denying us the ability to sin.  Thus, all of us would be spared the hell that awaits those who choose evil, but at the same time, we would also be denied the Heaven that God's plan makes available to us if we make the right choices.



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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/13/2001 8:27 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (42 of 42)  
 
  117.42 in reply to 117.41  
 
I disagree with you on All Points!
I would not characterize God as Clever and then more clever than Satan as though those two are mere equals.

God is God and Knows Everything!

God Commanded Adam Not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and Bad. There is no way that God would then Command them to eat from it later.

God knew that Adam and the Woman would eat from the tree, Satan Didnt know what the actions of Adam and the woman would be.

***BTW, Satan has Never wanted to save mankind, Satan is solely out to Destroy Mankind. IF Satan wanted to save mankind he would not have Temped and Deceived the woman into eating and Disobeying God. 

Satan is described as a Liar and a Murder. What Satan did in deceiving mankind was an act of Murder. The Murder of the spirit & soul, of Humanity. People now know death, and despair and sin because Satan deceived the woman into disobeying God.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He (Satan) was a Murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it.

Mormons are Constantly defending Satan and the inexcusable actions of Satan. I find this Mormon defense of Satan to be Satanic and you are required to do it because Mormonism teaches that Satan is your spiritual brother and you Mormons are trying to become like Satan.

While we Christians are Rejecting Satan and following Jesus.






David A. Brown
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